In my recent experiences inside the Sydney music scene, I have learned there are numerous approaches to how gigging bands get paid (or not). Some of these include -
1. Free entry for punters, band takes a share of the bar tab. The upside is the venue is offering free music and this will pull more of a crowd than an entry fee. A great opportunity for newer bands who can’t necessarily pull their own crowd just yet and need chances to play infront of crowds to grow their fanbase. The downside is you never know how much the bar really took in and if you are getting a fair share, and this scheme is based on the premise that we want to the punters to drink as much as they can! With all the problems around alcohol and social disorder, I’m not too certain this is a socially responsibily way to get people to give some new music a listen.
2. Entry fee for punters, door person asks who they have come to see, the band is paid by the number of heads they bring in - The upside is if you have a loyal fanbase, you can make some good change out of this. It can also be good when bands with established fan bases play on bills with new bands who can take advantage of playing in front of a new crowd and hopefully convert some people. Of course, the downside is newer bands without a fanbase stand to get paid pretty much zilch! So you must balance playing some of the gigs with the target of growing your fanbase and swallow the finanical loss.
3. Entry fee for punters, after all tech support and such are paid, headliners get the biggest chunk, and other bands get less - Upside, some dosh for everyone, downside is income depends on crowd size again, and if you’re not pulling them, you may not get to play that venue again (which I guess can be said most all the scenarios). Also, it seems most people will only want to pay to hear bands they already know and like - a hard spot to be in if you are a band just trying to get heard.
4. Flat fee agreed payment upfront - great deal if you can get it through a booker or agent. This prolly is really only available to acts who are proving they can pull the heads through the doors. If there is a downside, I suppose it may be you could be pulling in more money for the venue and bookers than you are getting a share of.
It’s hard to know what is really fair for everyone involved - not that the issue is about money grubbers, but rather we all want to do this full time and be able to pay our rents and mortages off it. And venue managers, bookers, agents, sound guys, technicians, managers - we all deserve our fair share. What are the best ways to give a new band live gig exposure when punters will rarely be willing to pay to give it a chance?
Personally, I also think it would be great if all the venues were consistent on their payment scheme, but I would love to hear differing opinions.
June 14th, 2008 at 8:08 pm
[...] Suzanne wrote a fantastic post today on “Whatâ
June 16th, 2008 at 5:36 pm
You forgot one…
The venue is a struggling pub with a great local feel and a huge passion for live music (e.g. the Town and Country in St Peters), we’re a band who puts on an awesome show although we’re unknown outside the tri-dog area (Enmore people will know what it means). We do tit-for-tat. We play every second Wednesday, the pub gives us beer, we build our following, they build theirs (and with the right sort of people for the direction they’re looking to go in). We’ve done about 5 or 6 residencies now, and the pub has seen enough interest to build a new stage. Couldn’t really give a rats about money. And we ain’t just any band - we are the ever unpredictable New Archetypes. Come watch us play on Wednesday. It’ll be my third gig so far playing guitar with a broken hand (if you don’t count our Scout performance).
June 24th, 2008 at 10:46 am
I work at alot of venues, but it still amazes me how frequently bands dont bring anyone, and I mean “anyone”. I recently worked a show @ Excelsior hotel, and between 4 bands, there were 13 paying people. Thats not even 1 per band member.
This is why venues go bust.
I think I might look at it differently from alot of people but seriously, if you are in a band and are given the opportunity to play at a venue…..BRING SOME PEOPLE….advertise, put the show in gig guides, hand out fliers, bulletins on myspace, guilt-trip all your friends. Make it a big deal, and you will reap the rewards!.
Its not good enough to have a “cool” band, with “cool” songs, you have to bring some people, and allow the venues to continue.
Just imagine if you, a band member, brought 8 people ( girlfriend, brother, grandma…doesnt matter), With 3 bands playing…thats 100 people!…that feels like a party.
Give it a go!
June 24th, 2008 at 3:08 pm
Im tired of hearing the wa wa wa of venues telling bands to bring a
crowd. Blaming bands for them not bringing people and being the reason
that pubs are broke or closing down. GARBAGE. How about the venue does
its job and promotes its own entertainment format. For a business to
carry on about new indie acts not bringing a crowd is pathetic.
Giving them a chance to play PLEASE. If your a venue grow the scene, get
in well known acts that pull massive numbers because majors and publicity
radio and tv are behind them. And fork the bill if you want the return.
Then add a few new up and comming acts to the bill and expose the new
acts as part of your new scene. Dont expect a new act with nil cash or
budget to be able to fill your venue. If they could they would just
hire it and make the cash themselves. For the love of god im sick
of the spin from venues that cry poor and that they cant make money
of a new act. Its been the same for years. Pubs like the dale are on to
it. They nurture new acts on a night designed for it. Get well
known indies signed locals and select O.S acts and when new acts are
introduced they are able to grow in front of an audience and
then establish in their own right. That way the dale gets a great rep
has the new bands on the cusp who become the next well known indie
on occasion and the whole networking system is proven a winner.
So get over it venues and create your own business and network.
Next you will have the bands pulling beers.
June 26th, 2008 at 8:58 am
So you think its too much for a venue to ask a band to bring 10 people to a show?
Come on!?!?. The Annandale is one of the only venues making a profit from bands, YES, becuase they were smart about it, but they still only book bands that are bringing people.
The Annandale is part of a food chain. You start at smaller venues, if you bring some people, then maybe you get a show @ Excelsior, if you bring some people, then maybe you get a show @ Annandale. You guys know that.
I dont wanna get in an arguement about it, but why do you think Venues all shut in the late nineties and started putting in Pokies and Bistros???
Think about it. Its your job to build your fanbase.
Maybe this is why so few Aussie bands get anywhere? because they expect someone else to do all the work?
when was the last time someone in a band gave you a flier outside a show?. perhaps we can learn from the US model, where bands are actively at shows trying to promote themselves, rather than sitting back and waiting for someone else to do it?
June 26th, 2008 at 10:57 am
Nice lively debate here. I would think it needs to be a mutual venture in that both the bands and the venues share promotion responsibility. But the original point of my post was directed at punters and the fact that very few want to PAY to see new, unknown music - most punters go for what is already heavily promoted on the radio, in press, and has the backing of majors. So a band can only ask their friends to come pay to see them so many times. Can people suggest ways to entice new punters to come down to the shows to see new bands? What does it take?
While I think something like the free entry for punters model holds the most promise, I am not all that keen on asking people to drink themselves blind so the band can get paid. Other ideas??
June 27th, 2008 at 12:29 pm
You can get bands that bring people. They cost money though. A new indie does
want to bring people and gain access to fanbase and will not expect to be paid
until they can. Putting the extra “bonus” of having to be the brunt takers for not
being the promoter is ridiculous is all im saying. Venues close down because
they are failing at business. Poker machines make money and thats sad but true.
Im sure a lot of Aussie bands dont get anywhere because the indie industry is not
protective,loosely regulated and unforgiving of those who haven’t learnt its a business.
Last time i checked bands in Aus are doing all they can to maintain themselvse’s
as an act. I dont see the pubs kicking in for rehearsals, equipment cost,
recording costs,mix ,master,software or even demo costs
print costs, distribution costs, online costs, management costs, press,pr,
Nor do bands expect it because its not the venues job, its the bands and in effect
while most are working the two jobs it takes to get to even that level id say
they are doing their fair share to promote.
All im saying is get a promotor or ent manager for your venue
and yes hopefully the bands can begin to drag in more punters. But they are
musicians and are doing a lot and no they dont expect a free ride , just a fair one.
Im just over venues outsourcing to “promotors” who dont promote ?
Then hammer the bands for not promoting far and above what is viable.
Ive played the dale many times. They pay fairly, help nurture new acts, advertise
and front budget for acts that draw crowds. Usually label represented
artists with a working structure and viable campaign behind them. They maintain
the high profile and bands promote their shows gigs or sets gladly because
nobody is asking them to become the scape goat if it fails to attract.
If your a pub and you rely on unknown acts to service your entertainment far an above
their capability then its over before it begins. Venues and promoters and artists
can either unite and work as a team to a fair money result or history
will continue to repeat itself. The venue is right to say they have a business they have
overheads, so does the promotor, guess what so does the band.
June 30th, 2008 at 5:19 am
At the end of the day, the venue is only really interested in money,
hence the bar & pokies. As far as actually giving bands exposure, they seem
to only be concerned with the number of people paying for their drinks.
I’ve been to the Excelsior a number of times to see relatively new bands,
and the place has been empty. I’ve even seen more established bands not
draw more than 20 or so people, which brings me to agree with Brett. If
you’re playing a show ADVERTISE THE DAMN THING. Tell the universe that you’re
playing such and such a venue, that it will be great, and you might get a few poeple
to show up! Physically bring people in tow. You might look that much bigger
than the other bands on the bill if you’ve got an entourage. Add incentives
TALK to the people @ Scout, set up some sort of deal with them, such as a few free entry
passes or something like that as a giveaway.
As for promotors, IMO bands should take more direct control over their
business. Make their own advertising… it REALLY isn’t THAT hard.
I think it comes down to laziness/inexperience and people thinking that
the mountain will come to them.
July 3rd, 2008 at 9:28 am
I agree with points made on here. Firstly yes i strongly agree that the venue cares
about money. They are a business and their main source of income will be the bar
and alcohol sales plus revenue from gambling .
Regardless of how they entice punters “live music” “poker machines”
“social clubs” “promotions” “happy hour” “karaoke” “trivia” “dj’s”
“televised sport events”theme & celebrated busy periods or holiday
events like “xmas” “Aus day” even memorial days like “Anzac day”
They are in the business of selling alcohol. Some have food / restaurant
or cafe facilities, but alcohol must be sold. Its a pub!
Ent managers have a budget and these events cost money to run and set up
and the venue is going to have to pay. So they need a return
Cover bands get payed, karaoke suppliers gets payed, poker machines
bring in cash and have tax’s and the powers that be get payed,you pay to screen
sports events etc etc. So the venue needs a return and a profit. They are not giving
you the artist the chance of a life time to break the scene !! or determined
to get your music out there !! or doing you any massive favours !! They are
doing business and dont give a rats about the scene if your area of ent is
not returning a profit. Live venues arent closing down? they are there and
always will be while people drink socially. Bands, you can do all of the above
mentioned promotion but do it wisely. Dont think you will be included
in the real money deal while you are being told by shady promotors
to move tickets, bring the venue an entourage or friends or as the pub
will hope “drinkers”and potential return customers to a bar. By doing this you are
probably “as an independent act” servicing a small profit area that they need to
have at certain times. If you were to work your ass off and sell the venue out
your efforts on current deals that have been doing the rounds for the last 20
years would not be specially rewarded in the cut of profit. You would no doubt be
asked back. Probably given a speal about exposure,never see the actual takings,
have no real contract or documents reporting to you the cash cost and overall proffit,
how it is being distributed to the venue your act and promotor etc etc. If you
can pack out a venue great go hire it, bring a contract or negotiate one thats
fair. Cut out the dodgy indie band level promoter or hire one on a results
commission bases and make the bastards work. There are many smaller venues
not necessarily pubs that you can hire and promote to your fans and use to grow
your numbers. Then progress to venue gigs that will reward your promotional
and musical skills with a decent contract. You might just find yourself being
approached by high profile events . I agree with the other comments to. The band
does promote and as an indie will have to to grow. But yes they are not
the pubs hired indie band promotor? what the hell does that guy do these days
anyway? Dont get “sold second hand” cause “thats how it goes,playin in a band”
realise you are in the music BUSINESS cause its a long way to the top
But if you are going to do all the hard work then take control of the deal !